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What Our Members Think

Paul just took off like a bat out of hell when the Center started. This was a dream come true for him, wasn't it? He was just the most alive guy around. All these new ideas kept churning faster than he could write them down. There was that energy, that intensity -- in poetic terms that magic -- that was happening. The real power of it was happening right before our eyes. There was just this splendid event. It was like Camelot in the making. It had that romance to it, that adventure to it, that excitement, that energy, that power.

Tony Rostron

DEAN: We have an excellent record of your very first meeting with Paul, since it was videotaped from start to finish. Was that the very first time you'd heard of him?
TONY: No, but it was the first time I met him. Jurgen had been telling me about Paul.
DEAN: Were you skeptical about what Jurgen was telling you?
TONY: Of course. Jurgen had made another video tape that you've seen. You're in it: it was the time when Paul's ex-lover Gerry and Gerry's new lover had come to visit.
DEAN: Oh, the after-dinner conversation at Paul's with me on camera.
TONY: So I had seen that over at Jurgen's 63rd Street apartment one night. We had just met and were courting. We were watching this video tape, and here comes this guy making googly eyes at the camera! Jurgen asked me what do I think of him, Paul Rosenfels. And my initial reaction was that he was a dirty old man who had discovered a fountain of youth. I was very skeptical.
DEAN: By "fountain of youth" do you mean he felt young or that he'd found a way of gathering young people around him?
TONY: He found a way of keeping young people around him. I'd say I stopped being skeptical of Paul when I became convinced that he really loved Jurgen. It was in our earlier counseling sessions. Jurgen and I had become lovers. We were living together. And I remember realizing that, "Oh, this man really loves Jurgen. He's on Jurgen's side." He sort of proved that to me. That's when I allowed myself to really be totally open to him and to his influence. Up until then I just went along with seeing Paul as a therapist because it was something Jurgen wanted me to do.
DEAN: What were your impressions, meeting Paul for the first time?
TONY: I had trouble believing anything or anybody. I wasn't leery of him like I was leery of so many other things going on in my life. I liked him. He was warm. I enjoyed what was happening in the moment. But I can't honestly say that I took him seriously. I was afraid of taking things seriously. At least that is what I was telling myself at the time. There were some things that I was taking seriously that were just adding to my depression.
DEAN: Would you say that you were a victim of post-traumatic stress syndrome?
TONY: Delayed stress syndrome, yes. Only there was nothing delayed about it in my case. It was instantaneous. Paul said it was a classic case of battle fatigue.
DEAN: How long were you in Vietnam?
TONY: Eleven months. I started to crumble toward the end while I was still there.
DEAN: Because you were seeing so much death?
TONY: Yeah, and all the dishonesty of it. I was just so totally ashamed of my participation in all of it. What sent me over the edge was when two weeks after I got back Kent State happened where these kids were killed by the militia. I went crazy. I spent a total of about five months in the hospital. Then, since I was still in the army, they sent me back to duty. I was assigned at the Presidio in San Francisco. And that's where I came out, really. Eventually I talked my way out with an honorable medical discharge.
DEAN: When people know they need a rest and know that the only way to manipulate the system into getting a rest is to act a little crazier than they feel, sometimes they fake it.
TONY: Oh, I didn't have to act at all. I was crazy.

I have to tell you a funny story. I had just been transferred from the closed ward to the open ward, which means that rest is exactly what you're there for. You have a lot of sedation. In fact, I was taking 2400 milligrams of thorazine a day. That sounds like a lot, but it was no more than anybody else was getting. It's straitjacket time. You're totally mindless, you do exactly what you're told to do. And what they basically tell you to do is lay down. So that's what you do. And you eat. You eat and you rest.

DEAN: Sounds like fun.
TONY: Not really. You have to understand there's still all this inner torture going on, an identity loss. You really don't know who you are anymore. You don't know what to believe in, literally. I've since said about this experience that I've given birth to myself. I know who I am because I made me.

Anyway, they'd just moved me onto an open ward where there wasn't as close supervision, but you were still in the army. Every Wednesday morning there is a stand-by inspection. You have to clean the barrack. There's a bay of twenty-two beds, eleven on each side. I'm fourth from the end as you go around the circle. So like there's the Colonel, who's Chief of Neuropsychiatry, there's the Major, who's my doctor, there's a lieutenant, who's the nurse, and some aide.

They walk in. They get to me, and my doctor says, "Colonel, this is Specialist Rostron. You remember Specialist Rostron. You spoke with Specialist Rostron last week." And the Colonel says, "Ah, yes, Specialist Rostron, how are you today?" I say, "Well, feelin' a little nervous, sir." He starts chiding me. "Well don't you think that's a good reason for being here?" And I said, "Well, isn't that a Catch-22, sir? I'm nervous because I am here!"

I actually said that. He got furious. He turned red in the face and stormed out, and everybody had to follow. And I looked around with a "What did I say, what did I do?" expression on my face.

I had nothing to lose anymore. I didn't give a fuck. I wasn't playing the game.

DEAN: All you did was say the truth.
TONY: And I swore to myself that's all I was going to say from now on. I wasn't playing the game. I'll just say "sir" and follow orders and do exactly what they say.

So anyway, about ten minutes later, the lieutenant comes back and says, "At ease." Everybody was left standing. Finally he comes back and like you're assigned whatever is available to do. I think we were on our way to the arts and crafts playroom -- occupational therapy they called it. And my doctor grabs me and says, "Rostron, what are you trying to do? I just spent the last half hour with that guy. He wants to give you shock treatment!"

DEAN: They wanted to kill you.
TONY: They weren't going to let me get away with any insubordination. Like speaking the truth.
DEAN: You were still trying to be religious at that time. What denomination were you trained in?
TONY: Presbyterian and Episcopalian -- which is a kind of polarity right there of Christian doctrines.
DEAN: I know that Episcopalian is the American branch of the Anglican church, but what is Presbyterian?
TONY: Presbyterians are very strict Scottish Bible thumpers. Not your born-again fanatics, but they take the Bible very literally.
DEAN: When I was ten I used to love the Bible thumpers on 42nd Street. I could see that the world was fucked up, and I thought, "Hey, what if these guys are the only ones who know what the real truth is? They're the only ones who are even admitting that the world is fucked up. Everybody else is just going along pretending everything's okay." Sort of a variation on the "In an insane society, the sane man must appear insane" theme from Star Trek. I had been naively impressed with the intellectual discipline and sense of purpose I'd seen in my after-school Catholic training. But I soon learned that these people knew only negative things. And that wasn't enough.
TONY: They're just critics. They don't really have any ideas to offer.
DEAN: And they're not even very good critics, usually. They don't criticize the right things. They tell people to be more family-oriented, but I think that's part of the problem. We should be a lot less family-oriented.
TONY: I had a run-in with the Chaplain there at the hospital. We were reading this one section of John quoting Jesus saying that the thief comes in the night using the back door. And having participated in Vietnam that's exactly how I felt. I asked, "Well, isn't he talking about us?" But he wouldn't answer. He didn't want to hear it. He changed the subject.
DEAN: That was his way of saying you were right.
TONY: He was a career soldier. He wasn't taking anybody seriously. It was all sanctimonious.
DEAN: I guess my way of handling the whole Vietnam thing was to just be indifferent towards it. I felt admiration for people who were manning picket lines and burning their draft cards, but every time I thought of following them my heart just wasn't in it.

Did you know that Paul tried to get me to join the army in 1968?

TONY: Why on earth would he want you in the army? Is this something he actually tried to do, or just something he suggested in terms of some sort of enlistment for you?
DEAN: I had not seen him for about a year, after having been in therapy with him for only a few weeks. I had dropped out of college and was slowly getting ready to deal with him. But the minute I dropped out and got a job I just got more depressed and out of it. I needed to just live for awhile on a day-to-day basis and learn the basic ropes of adaptive life: going to work, finding an apartment, making a few friends. But I didn't feel capable of being creative at all and I didn't want anybody to know me.

After another year had gone by I finally got the courage to walk into Paul's office after this long guilt-ridden absence and say hello to him. When he saw how out of it and fucked up I was, he said, "Dean, I wouldn't say this to most people in a period like this, but you know, you could do a lot worse than to go through the enlistment experience that the army offers you. If you found that you were going to be sent to Vietnam and put in combat, you could just let the sickness come out. Let it come to the surface so that they would give you a medical discharge."

I knew what he meant by "letting the sickness out." I had found in high school that it was fun to fake epileptic seizures and convince other kids that I was nuts. And sometimes I even thought, "Well, maybe I'm not faking it, maybe I'm letting real seizures come out." So I started thinking about the army.

TONY: It's not bad advice.
DEAN: No. He didn't want me to actually kill people, after all. I'm sure I would have enjoyed enlisting in a peace-time army and done very well for myself. I like discipline in a team.

Anyway, I still couldn't believe that Paul really wanted to be in my life. But once I allowed myself to calm down a little bit and just accept it and accept my not understanding it, then I could stand to be with him for more than ten minutes at a time -- and without having a drink first. That's when the relationship started to jell. And once I was able to break through this homophobic barrier, then I didn't need to go on with this army idea. Paul said later, "I'm so glad you didn't go into the army. You don't need to do that now."

Actually, what I was suffering from was more like what Paul would have called a psychopathic barrier: an inability to feel the coherence of my life.

TONY: Sometimes just having an alternative like that available to you has enough of a calming effect that you can look at what you needed to be calmed down from. Just to have some kind of objective plan.
DEAN: I'm sure that the army is like that for many people. It may be that societies are really helped by having a peace-time army, even if they don't have any battles to fight. It's a good way for certain kinds of masculine people to just get away from their sickness, to stop worrying about all the stuff they don't understand.

When did you move back to New York?

TONY: That would have had to be the Spring of 1972.
DEAN: Had you been a native New Yorker?
TONY: I'd spent about a year on Long Island, but mostly I grew up in Westchester and Rockland.
DEAN: How soon after coming back to New York did you meet Paul?
TONY: I met Jurgen on Good Friday, the Friday before Easter. I left that weekend to go upstate and visit my old foster parents. And then something happened between Jurgen and me. I met this guy and wound up having a brief affair. I felt very ashamed of myself because he just went away -- even though I knew he was going to go away. It was just an episode, but I was too ashamed of myself to get in touch with Jurgen again. We were sort of separated for about nine months. This was after meeting Paul.
DEAN: Did you drop out of counseling with Paul then?
TONY: I wasn't in counseling with Paul. I didn't start counseling with Paul until Jurgen and I became lovers shortly before Christmas.
DEAN: Was counseling with Paul something that you were doing for Jurgen or for yourself?
TONY: It was something that I was doing for Jurgen. I'd had so many fucking psychiatrists and psychologists and social workers.
DEAN: Had any of them taught you anything?
TONY: Oh, yeah: I learned how to play chess. So that's what I thought I was getting into. And I said, "Alright, if that's what Jurgen wants, I'll do it."
DEAN: What was your first private session like, when the cameras were turned off?
TONY: Paul said, "So, what do you want?" I said, "What do I want?? I want to be me!" And he said, "What the fuck does that mean?" And I told him what it meant, and I guess he liked the answer. Nobody had ever asked me what I wanted. So we got down to work.
DEAN: Did he tell you right off that you were feminine?
TONY: He asked me what I thought. I was pretty certain I was feminine but I wasn't going to admit it.
DEAN: By that time you'd gotten the whole spiel about polarity from Jurgen and you'd read some of the books?
TONY: I had speed-read the paperback in the galleys that Paul gave Jurgen. And I reread it once it was published.
DEAN: Gee, I wonder why Paul gave galleys to Jurgen. The paperback was identical to the hardcover.
TONY: He had like an extra set.
DEAN: Ah, a collectible! So you didn't appreciate being identified as feminine?
TONY: It had too many conventional connotations that I couldn't accept. It took a little while to learn how to be proud of my femininity.
DEAN: Some Center people to this day think that Paul should have kept to his original terms "yielding" and "assertive," or even "submissive" and "dominant." The words "masculine" and "feminine" are so loaded.
TONY: Well, you still find people at the Center who don't even want to hear that they're submissive. They don't understand what that is. I'm very happy with the term "feminine." I wouldn't change it for the world.
DEAN: Some people prefer the term "feeling-based" -- which I guess describes a person who feels a lot but doesn't particularly need to submit to anything.
TONY: Yeah, you just feel a lot, and then talk out of that feeling. Well, I'm sure you'll get all of that down when you interview those people. God, are you in for it.
DEAN: Well, in theory, everybody who knew Paul has something original to say -- even if there are major gaps in their personalities. Hopefully, by recording all these various viewpoints, it'll be like the blind men feeling the elephant. And we have an advantage: we're not blind and Paul's not an elephant.

Everybody has told me millions of times that there are major gaps in my personality, after all, but I don't go lie down and kill myself about it.

TONY: And they're right to say it. And you're right to answer, "Well, I'm working on it."
DEAN: "Give me another couple of decades and maybe I'll get somewhere."

But you didn't like the idea of being feminine.

TONY: I didn't think I was supposed to like the idea. It was almost like an automatic false pride. I had already proven my manhood. Nobody was going to take that away from me. I was connecting conventional images to what "feminine" meant. I think I knew I was doing that because I knew that what was really being addressed here was something much deeper and more profound than that. I didn't really understand it but I sensed it was there. So, when Paul confirmed that I was indeed feminine it was like a burden lifted off me. I believed him, I trusted him.

I can't remember exactly now how he described and explained it. He didn't even really need to. I had already set him up to give that to me. I was ready for it, but at the same time there was this private little tug of war I was having with it that I was eager to lose.

DEAN: What was the theme of your early counseling with Paul?
TONY: A lot of it was just becoming acquainted with the subtleties and nuances of polarity. Jurgen and I were lovers: we had a working relationship and our own little laboratory going there. So there was always plenty to talk about with Paul, plenty of real hands-on experience. I'd say, "This is what I tried and this is what happened," or, "I think this is fucked up, but this seems to be working." There was always plenty of real material to deal with. I wasn't one of these people who sat down with Paul and just theorized.
DEAN: I don't think he entertained that kind of approach from anybody, really.
TONY: I'm still very fuzzy about it, and some of it's still a mishmash. I don't think I really got over the shock of Vietnam. The total impact of all that didn't really lift from me until, say, seven or eight years ago when I finally felt free of the shame of it. This early period of my relationship with Paul is very fuzzy since it all fits into the same bag, the same pot of stew.
DEAN: I always thought of you as a hippie or a counterculture person who was very personable and liked to cut through the bullshit, so I always imagined that you would never have anything to do with a man like Paul unless it was on the basis of a personal friendship.
TONY: Absolutely. When I was convinced that Paul loved Jurgen and wouldn't do anything to hurt Jurgen -- and was there to teach me how to help and love Jurgen more because he loved Jurgen -- that made us friends. That's when I opened up to him, that's when I could take him seriously, that's when I could love him and just be open to his influence. I would have done anything he ever suggested, whether I understood it or not, because I knew I would understand it by the time I finished trying.
DEAN: Paul never really had many friends in the sense of spending time with people outside of counseling.
TONY: Well, he did come up one day to bake bread with me at 63rd Street. He taught me how to bake bread. But seeing people socially had to be a let-down compared to counseling. I understood that.
DEAN: When the Center started, was that exciting for you?
TONY: Oh sure. You remember what it was like. All that excitement, the newness of it.
DEAN: Did it seem like an objectification of Paul's teachings, as if they were now realer than they had been before the Center existed?
TONY: It was different, but not any less or more real. I would have still had a relationship with Paul. But Paul just took off like a bat out of hell. This was a dream come true for him, wasn't it? He was just the most alive guy around. All these new ideas kept churning faster than he could write them down. There was that energy, that intensity -- in poetic terms that magic -- that was happening. The real power of it was happening right before our eyes. There was just this splendid event. It was like Camelot in the making. It had that romance to it, that adventure to it, that excitement, that energy, that power.
DEAN: I guess fundamentally new human institutions can be like that for people.
TONY: I think the best ones have to provide people with that kind of enthusiasm and inspiration somewhere along the line or they never get off the ground.
DEAN: The very first town hall meeting must have been a splendid event, even though today neither you nor I would be caught dead at one.
TONY: Now they're just some sort of mundane ordeal to wade through.
DEAN: So you found that Paul was more alive and seemed more happy with his life when the Center started?
TONY: I think so. And there was all that cooking he was doing for the Saturday Night Buffet Suppers.
DEAN: He really was kept busy all week with just the cooking alone.
TONY: It's just amazing. The personal things I remember, the things that got said and stayed with me, very rarely happened during a counseling session. Something would happen during a talk group where it wasn't theoretical anymore. He was dealing with life in a hands-on way. He was dealing with somebody's problem and you could see the way he was doing it. You could see the truth that he was offering.
DEAN: You could see living examples of ordinary people off the street being loving or powerful, or honest or courageous.
TONY: That's really where the learning took place on my part. I remember we'd had a pretty good session one week. And we had to go over to the Center to pick something up or drop something off. We were walking and I was telling him about my reaction to our previous session, that it had been good and had real impact on me. I can't remember what happened in that session, but I remember what he said on our walk, and that's what has stayed with me since. He said, "The mark of a good therapist, Tony, is to learn his student's pace, then teach it to him." Now that's a golden rule to live by! The mark of a good therapist is to learn your student's pace, then teach it to him.
DEAN: It was a relief for me when he learned about pacing, when he accepted the fact that people couldn't always grow as fast as he wanted them to. But it wasn't as simple as just letting go of a falsehood, because he had to make an important distinction between permissiveness and psychic rest. He wasn't telling people, "Okay, now go do what you want." He was telling people, "You have a right to grow at your own pace as long as you don't get permissive with your defenses or turn away from growth altogether." And that's an important distinction. It meant he wasn't just giving in to just anything people wanted to call a lifestyle. He was still setting a standard, and reserving the right to challenge people.

And I on my part had to learn that just because we spoke up to somebody didn't mean that we were making their life impossibly difficult, and that the people who didn't let us speak up to them probably didn't let anybody else speak up to them either and would probably never grow in this larger interpersonal sense.

TONY: The person involved has to be taking responsibility for his pace, the whole package. This is nowhere meant to be designed as a cop-out for anything.
DEAN: It's not like conventional psychiatry, which valiantly tries to relieve people of the burden of having to do anything significant with their lives.

Paul learned this from observations he was now making about how some people were using the Center to have fun and relax while other people seemed to be getting "creativity poisoning" from it. A lot of strange overstimulated things were going on in those days.

I remember one month when almost all the couples at the Center broke up. Do you have any idea of what all that was about?

TONY: I had no idea that was going on. When Jurgen and I split up it was for pretty good reasons. Jurgen had gone through one of these imperial-dominant ruts, and I couldn't budge it. He wasn't taking me seriously. He wasn't taking anything seriously. He was just on this posturing thing. I needed just to demonstrate to him that, "Well, if you can't take it seriously, I can."
DEAN: So, getting away was your way of saying, "I take it seriously," not, "I don't value this." While you were away from Jurgen, were you still seeing Paul?
TONY: Yes, and so was Jurgen. Jurgen was going through a very reckless period in his life. He was misusing a lot of new-found confidence by going on this delinquent streak. He broke through and gained some new territory, but he didn't develop his responsibility along with it. It unleashed some defenses instead of fortifying integrity.

And I think it's great when that happens. It's not great while it's happening, but sometimes it's the only way to find out about this stuff. This is not just words on paper, it's flesh and blood life. I'm not ashamed really of any of my fuck-ups. I use shame to stop being fucked up. I know what it is to get fucked up, and I know what it is to fuck somebody else up. I don't deliberately set out to hurt anybody, and I'm not a vicious person, but some people got hurt.

DEAN: Do you feel you need a lover in order to grow?
TONY: I think I do, but probably not everybody does. If I didn't have a lover, I'd be actively pursuing one. I like having a mated relationship.
DEAN: We often say at the Center that having a lover may often involve healthy celibate phases. Since everyone has someone they're closest to, couldn't we say that everyone who takes their human involvement seriously already does have a lover in this sense? Don't we grow just by honestly trying to get close to people? Is that a meaningful way of talking about this?
TONY: If it works for you, I guess it is. I don't think I would use those terms.
DEAN: Then what is a lover? How do you know when you have a lover, or when you are a lover?
TONY: You know, I don't even use the word lover anymore.
DEAN: I guess I don't much either. I always disliked the term because it reminded me of flowery romantic poetry or something. What I do with my life is usually more stressful and uncertain than "falling in love." I need somebody who has more to say than just, "Come live with me and be my love." We are talking about real life here.

And I don't think Paul ever quite decided what the purpose of a lover was. Sometimes he'd say, "Dean, a lover is somebody that gives you inner freedom or security and helps complete you, gives you a foundation for life, a home to come to. But the people you learn from are your friends." And other times he would say, "A lover is the person who shows you who you are. You can't grow without a lover." He switched between these two views several times during the years I lived with him.

At the end of his life, when I pointed out how central both Nick and I were to his psychic welfare, he said, "Well, I guess you can have two lovers at the same time after all."

TONY: Jurgen and I have a very rich mated relationship. We count on each other. It's far from being complete, it's far from being a finished thing, but we're still there, egging each other on.
DEAN: I guess I have come to think of "my lover" as whichever person I'm closest to, as long as I'm really helping them or they're really helping me. Of course, you could have a close relationship with somebody who's not polarized with you, so this definition leaves polarity out. But maybe that's alright, too.

I think we need a better way of talking about the importance of these kinds of experience: the non-sexual polarized relationships and the non-polarized ones as well. "My best friend," is often more than "just a friend," he's my best experiment, my best commitment, my best creative expression.

TONY: A bond of identification between two masculines or a bond of empathy between two feminines can be very important.
DEAN: We were talking about how excited Paul was when the Center started, and how when he dealt with real people in a real setting like the open discussion groups, and talked them through or explained their defenses to them, that this made things so much realer to you. Did you get something out of his closed talk groups, too?
TONY: Oh, sure. I can't remember anything verbatim, but they were unique. Maybe I have this blown out of proportion, but I came away from those things feeling that nobody was getting the things out of it that were going into it. We were on the cusp of something so great. We were really doing something so fucking great, so wonderful, so good. I remember the intensity of it. It's kind of hard to pinpoint any of it because I incorporated as much of it as I have. It's me. I can't isolate this facet from that facet.
DEAN: Do you think we're capable really of carrying on a living tradition of creative living, or are we going to live our lives as mere echoes of the larger truth that he represented?
TONY: Well, if we're nothing but mere echoes of the larger truth, then so was he nothing but a mere echo of a larger truth, if you want to see it in those terms.
DEAN: How do you see it?
TONY: I think people go on. I don't think you can stop growing once you've started. You might change your pace. You might grow a little faster at times or a little slower.
DEAN: People like you and I probably continue to grow just because we need to. We're not cut out for conventional living, we're too lopsided. So what did Paul give us that we wouldn't have found on our own?
TONY: A sense of identity.
DEAN: You mean of being masculine or feminine?
TONY: The polarized identity, right. I'm feminine, and I know what that means, and I keep discovering more about what that means.
DEAN: And without Paul, you might still be a good-hearted, liberal, free-thinking person -- but you wouldn't have that feminine identity?
TONY: If I were still alive, I'd be a bum on the Bowery. I'd be neurotic, probably schizophrenic, without that sense of self. And a sense of pride in that self, a sense of the honesty that comes forth from that self.
DEAN: Do you think some people at the Center have stuck it out because they knew the alternative was some kind of personal extinction in the sense that you're talking about?
TONY: I think so.
DEAN: Is what Paul gave us something that we can give other people?
TONY: If other people want it as much as we wanted it. It's literally a perpetual motion machine. It keeps going whenever you find people who are dissatisfied enough. It might or might not work via the auspices of a Ninth Street Center, but it will work someplace, on a one-to-one basis.
DEAN: If what we are offering is bigger than any one of us -- including Paul -- we don't need to feel that guilty or ashamed when we fail with a particular person. Paul probably would have failed with some of these people who have started coming around in the last few years, too, don't you think?
TONY: I don't think Paul would have liked some of them.
DEAN: Now that we're talking about it, I don't think Paul would have liked that professorial masculine that you and I tried to help last year. Paul had no tolerance for masculine professors. I never saw Paul get into quite such a rage as he did a few months after the Center started when there was this elderly masculine pseudo-intellectual lecturing people about Freudian psychology before the group had started. Paul just got livid.
TONY: He wouldn't put up with that nonsense. And some of these people we're entertaining these days would have stormed out a lot quicker.
DEAN: So maybe what we don't know how to do yet is to detect realistically what a person needs, and what we should give him. Is that one of our problems now that we're on our own?
TONY: I think you work on whatever you have to go on. If it turns out that what you're giving isn't needed or wanted, that's when you find out. I don't think that's anybody's fault, and I don't think it's a failure.
DEAN: What should we take away from the experience of having known Paul? How are we going to live differently having known him? Should we just forget that he was there and now just deal with whatever's in our head and whoever's in our life and not remember Paul or think about what he was?
TONY: I don't think you can do that. Let's face it, he had a profound influence in a lot of people's lives. He was truly a great man, and he influenced people, he woke them up, he made them come alive. He made his mistakes, and he drove some people crazy -- I'm sorry and I'm sure he was sorry. He wasn't this perfect human being. He was a scientist of the highest order.
DEAN: Something that he came up with -- which at the time I didn't like at all because it sounded cruel, but which I've come to use more and more in my life -- was this idea that when you are ready to get rid of somebody, you give them more and not less. I've used it in the past few years quite a lot.

What it means to me is that if somebody is sending me signals that they can't handle communicating openly about truth and right, or that they can't handle the idea of my being independent -- of people having their own ideas about the world and developing their own sensibility and their own way of life -- then I sort of give them a full blast of it. I don't lure them on, carrot by carrot, but rather let them see the whole picture so they can reject it with a full knowledge of what they're rejecting -- with a clear conscience, so to speak.

I sort of make sure nowadays that I never tolerate any tacit restriction on my ability to stand up for that, because I don't want the clarity of it to erode over time. By being more myself it sends a signal back to them that in no uncertain terms are they going to be allowed to have their defenses win out against my truth or my right. And that usually makes them angry enough to go away. But it also leaves them with a clear alternative in their mind that they'll be free to choose for themselves someday if they ever get tired of doing what society tells them to do and thinking what society tells them to think.

TONY: Then again, sometimes we inadvertently wind up giving too much. I think we find that out sooner or later.
DEAN: Right. Well, how do you live now? What are you doing with your life that is a result of this amazing experience you've had, having known this man, having been his student?
TONY: Right now, nothing, to tell you the truth. And I don't feel at all frustrated or anxious about what I'm going through. I'm learning to trust it. I'm really in a very inactive period, and I have been for almost a year. But I feel like I'm getting ready for something, only I can't tell you want.
DEAN: Maybe you're getting ready to do your first novel, or starting the New Mexico branch of Ninth Street Center? I remember you thinking you might move to Santa Fe a few years ago.
TONY: Whatever.
DEAN: Santa Fe has a branch of St. John's College, so you could always hang out there and learn about "the great books." What a weird place. Every time I get interesting in reading some esoteric guy like Spinoza, I remember the bad experiences I had at that school, the people who used new ideas as cocktail party fashion accessories -- just like wearing anti-war buttons or military medals. Lots of people impressing the hell out of each other and jockeying for positions of authority, but not a whole lot of educating going on.

But still it's amazing how much truth is out there to find, you know? I mean, I just went through Jung's Psychological Types and learned that people have been writing about polarity for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's like a fire that hasn't quite ignited yet, but it's smoldering? And maybe in another hundred years, it will ignite and then all of a sudden everybody will see it and feel it and be able to talk about it, and people won't understand how they could ever have not seen it. The idea that all men have the same personality structure will be regarded as about as primitive a belief as the divine right of kings.

Jung does a good job of outlining the history of polarity theory. He covers Plato, the medieval scholastics and modern philosophers, biographers and novelists. There's this biographer named Ostwald who wrote up a number of famous scientists and figured out whether they were what he called classic or romantic types -- and his descriptions of them are uncannily Rosenfelsian. Darwin, for example, he would have called a classic type, since he plodded slowly and deeply and only published late in life when he was really sure of his findings -- just as Paul did. Huxley he would have called a romantic, since he was constantly in the fray of battle, dramatically impressive in bearing and broad in influence but having less lasting scientific importance. Ostwald's description of Helmholtz' personality sounds exactly like Paul, down to the last neurotic tic. His moods, his habits -- the way he documented his discoveries even -- are so like Paul. The spookiest thing was knowing that Jung's book was written in the 1920's and that he was quoting from a book that was written many years before that.

It's like this stuff is all around us. It's not just us, it's not just the Ninth Street Center, it's not just Paul Rosenfels. It's the whole planet that is going through this polarization process. Damn, it's about time they figured it out!

TONY: We'd like to think so, wouldn't we? And it would sure make the next batch of obstacles and problems a hell of a lot more interesting.
DEAN: Is that what we're up against? Are we stymied because the thing refuses to ignite? Are we in a rut?
TONY: I've been in a rut. I know what that feels like. I think this is a kind of gestation period.
DEAN: Paul went through those. He went out to California and just thought and thought for years. So maybe you should just lay low, Tony. Get ready for your next performance.

I guess I'm getting ready for my next performance too. Now that Paul's gone, I feel like I have a great weight off my back. I'm very proud of what I gave him, but my entire adult life had been driven by wanting him to believe in me. And now I can live my own way. I don't know what that means, yet, but it certainly means that I can conduct experiments that he would have been shocked by. One thing I'm doing that would have upset him, for example, is letting a woman be in my life.

Do you think Paul was overanxious about the threat of heterosexuality to people who believe in the creative uses of homosexuality?

TONY: No. I think he was something of a purist in that regard, though, you know? I think he was totally convinced that all women are raised to be second-class citizens, and that men really do have an easier time achieving psychological independence. It wasn't a judgment on his part, it was an observation.
DEAN: He was always afraid that heterosexuality was going to take me away from his world. Nowadays, I think that this anxiety was just the price of having had several bad experiences, of falling for young men who were ready to try anything once -- but who always went back to their girlfriends. Plus the bitterness about having wasted so many years in a straight marriage.

He loosened up quite a bit towards the end, though. After I moved out of his apartment in 1975 I started going to dances and events that weren't just for gays only. It was so refreshing, you know, to feel alive, to feel excited, to feel available, to stop denying my attraction to women? I eventually found the courage to tell Paul what I was doing, and, to my great relief he found it in himself not to condemn me for it but to face the truth that for me this was a legitimate exploration. We even spoke one day about this one woman I had slept with -- it was a few weeks after she and I had broken up. It means an awful lot to me now that he finally came to accept my right to experience my psychological needs independently of his theoretical model of who I was. It means he really wanted to be my friend.

I think homosexuality is a great help to conventional people who need a jolt in letting go of the values of their parents -- in the same way that psychedelic drugs can be. But I haven't found as big a difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality for creative people. If you're trying to create a psychological context in which two people can help one another to grow, the problems are going to be similar whether you are dealing with a man and a woman, a woman and a woman, or a man and a man. The important question for me is whether they can see and work on their polarity, and make it go somewhere.

TONY: I agree with that. But in order to work out, to isolate, to locate, to identify the nature of those problems -- what kind of cinder blocks those obstacles are made of -- you have to go beyond your own gender identity. And that's why I think it's going to take somebody who's at least explored their homosexuality to break new ground. I just think it's going to be a thousand times more difficult for a heterosexual than it would be for a homosexual, because they believe in their heterosexuality. They believe in their gender identity. That is who they are. A straight man doesn't want to know that he's submissive, that he's feminine. And if he's masculine, he doesn't want to know that he can be cruel and masochistic -- he just wants to know that he's right.
DEAN: Typically, yes, but I wonder about the dissatisfied ones. I mean, isn't this picture that we paint of stupid ugly red-neck straight people part of the early advertising campaign that we invented for the Center, when we used to contrast the big bad heterosexual world with the good creative gay world that we were trying to build up together? Aren't we in danger of swallowing our own rhetoric here?
TONY: I don't know. . . . It is a big bad heterosexual world.
DEAN: You said you were gestating. Do you still read Paul's books once in awhile?
TONY: Sure, I read his monographs. As reference. Sometimes I use the indexes and sometimes I just remember sort of vaguely where things are.
DEAN: Are you writing?
TONY: I've written a couple of little poems, but just to play with. Nothing serious.
DEAN: Well, I think we can take it for granted that people of the future will want to know about who this person named Paul was. Do you think it's important for them to think about or want to know about what Paul's development looked like?
TONY: Some people would want to know. People who like to read biographies.
DEAN: Is that important or would the world be just as well off without biographies of Paul Rosenfels?
TONY: It adds a more human touch, a personal touch. It's easier to understand somebody's depth once you have a glimmer of their surface.
DEAN: I think one way of developing an appreciation for people is to know something of what they went through.
TONY: It would make Paul more of a friendly, one-on-one thing, rather than this dogmatic, all-powerful deity that you have to -- yuck -- comprehend.
DEAN: But his books will always be like that, won't they?
TONY: Given the subject matter, how else can they be? I find no fault there. But if all you knew about him was the way he thought about the subjects he thought about, it would be very easy to conjure up an image of a very dry, sterile, cold, almost oppressive personality.
DEAN: Like a Freud.
TONY: And he wasn't that. He was a man full of life. He really enjoyed living. And he wanted everybody to enjoy living.
DEAN: I think he did enjoy living much more when the Center started. When I first got together with him, he could get depressed quite a lot, you know? I mean I would come home from working and he'd just be sitting there. I'd say, "Hi," and he'd say, "Hi," but you could see that his emotional tone was like nowhere.

He told me when we first got together that his job was to help me find out who I really was, and my job was to help him die in peace. And once the Center got started, he didn't have time for any of that kind of talk.

TONY: Well, he had his moods, you know? He would feel the simple grays now and then. But depressed, no. We used to talk about depression. I haven't experienced any serious bleak black depression in a couple of years. And that's remarkable. That really is truly remarkable.
DEAN: I got depressed as a child starting in about the third grade when I thought the whole world was against me -- which it was -- but I haven't been really depressed since my courtship with Bill fifteen years ago. I just haven't allowed myself to get sucked into anything that undermining. I feel healthy and stable, and I love the fact that I can help people now in the way I always wanted to.

People don't always get the chance to feel that way at the Center. It's not always doing the job of allowing us to unleash these faculties within us. There's something wrong about that. We're custodians of some very important stuff, but how often when you go down there do you really feel like people are gathering around you to learn something important?

TONY: I haven't felt that way in years. Perhaps the Center isn't the place to experience that.
DEAN: Because everybody wants to be teacher now and nobody wants to be student?
TONY: Maybe the Center has sort of become a place to just get acquainted with these ideas. Then you take that into your own life and experience it somewhere else. It's like a library. You borrow the ideas. I think that's a natural part of the process of becoming institutionalized that the Center is going through.

See a 1974 interview with Tony about counseling
See a 1974 interview by Tony with Paul Rosenfels

 


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